"Even if it's just a seed, the solution is embedded within the problem." Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (a.k.a. The Body Whisperer) talks about her holistic health journey with guest host Leslie Stoval. Dr. Hubbard suffered from the supposedly incurable COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease) for nearly three decades before finding her way to Ayurveda and other holistic practices that helped her to be disease free and in support of transformational healing for others. Dr. Hubbard uplifts the connection between trauma and disease and the complicated task of overcoming the perception among Black Christian communities that holistic practices are somehow in violation to their own belief systems.
"Even if it's just a seed, the solution is embedded within the problem."
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (a.k.a. The Body Whisperer) talks about her holistic health journey with guest host Leslie Stoval. Dr. Hubbard suffered from the supposedly incurable COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease) for nearly three decades before finding her way to Ayurveda and other holistic practices that helped her to be disease free and in support of transformational healing for others. Dr. Hubbard uplifts the connection between trauma and disease and the complicated task of overcoming the perception among Black Christian communities that holistic practices are somehow in violation to their own belief systems.
The third season of BlackFemaleProject's podcast takes a deep and broad dive into the Health Services sector. Episodes 1 through 3 offer insights from three Black women with careers in the medical realm, followed by three episodes that feature Black women who center social responsibility in their paths. Our final trio of season 3 lifts up the wisdom and journeys of Black women who operate with a holistic perspective. We hope you enjoy the distinctions and commonalities across these dynamic and accomplished women's experiences.
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Ché Abram (00:00):
Content warning. Please note that early in this episode, our guest shares an impactful experience that involves sexual assault. Please be advised that all video and audio recordings were completed before the Covid 19 pandemic
Precious Stroud (00:27):
BlackFemaleProject.
Ché Abram (00:37):
Welcome back to the BlackFemaleProject Podcast. I'm Ché Abram. I don't think there are really words to describe how transformative this episode is, how transformative it's been for me watching it and listening to it. I think the three best words that come to mind are powerful, radiant, and centered self, not self-centered, but centered self, which I think will make a lot more sense after you listen and watch the episode. And I think these are the only words I could honestly come up with to describe everything that Dr. Phyllis Hubbard is. She truly, truly embodies health and wellness in this really beautiful way that helps guide us towards making deeper connections and what we already believe.
Leslie Stoval (01:38):
Thank you for being here. This is so fascinating. You were inspired to become a holistic healer.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (01:43):
Yes.
Leslie Stoval (01:44):
Because personal.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (01:45):
Yeah.
Leslie Stoval (01:46):
Yeah, do you mind sharing, yeah.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (01:48):
Oh my goodness. Uh, when I was a child, I developed a COPD and it happened. Interesting. We're talking on BlackFemaleProject, so I'll just out, up out the entire, uh, situation.
Leslie Stoval (02:34):
how old was she?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (02:35):
She was five. I was seven.
Leslie Stoval (02:37):
Okay. And how old was the boy?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (02:38):
Oh, I wanna say he seemed huge to me, but he was probably about 13 around that, you know? And so there was a lot of dynamics. He was white. She's Black. Wow. Um,
Leslie Stoval (02:48):
where was this?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (02:49):
This was in New Jersey. In New Jersey. And it was so devastating to me that it just, it took my breath away. I didn't know how to protect her. I had to run and protect myself cuz there were other boys there watching. I mean, it was a whole crazy thing. And so that winter I developed bronchitis and I never, of course, never made the connection. Right, right. But I got sick and sicker and sicker, and then it turned into COPD. Wow. And I had it for 27 years. And it went on in the, in my 26th year or so. I felt like, you know how a camera fades to black?
(03:27):
Yes. That's what I felt like my life. Like I was fading to black, like I was dying. And I don't know how to explain that unless, you know, you've been on a path where you're, you're literally slipping away. But I literally felt like I was dying. And this little voice inside said, okay, stay on this path and you die. And I was like, great. What's, what's the new path?
Leslie Stoval (04:19):
Is it an Indian word?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (04:20):
It's an Indian word. Yeah. Yes. And so Ayurveda is an East Indian form of medicine. Right. And I just thought, this is very interesting. So I open up the book, and when I'm reading the book, I'm like, well, what's the herb I'm supposed to take to fix this thing? Mm. Right. And the book was like, if you want to heal your body, you've got to figure out how to live. And that I, I was like, okay, this is very strange
Leslie Stoval (04:50):
What were you getting, manic? Was it being managed.by a doctor?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (04:52):
I was patient. Let me tell you, my doctor, my medical doctor said that I was going to get asthma and then emphysema before I died. And every year the medicine would get stronger, and then every year the disease would come back worse.
Leslie Stoval (05:06):
Did they know about your emotional trauma?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (05:07):
They did not. They did not know about it. No. Um, and I really don't even think they would care. I mean, it was, it was that kind of care. Right. Um, so was really, really interesting to me is that I, I started doing the math, like the medication was getting stronger and, and the disease was coming back worse. So I'm like,
Leslie Stoval (05:29):
How's this working here?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (05:30):
I'm like, this is not a, this path is like, you know, not leading me to a good place.
Leslie Stoval (05:35):
Right.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (05:36):
And so it really was desperation that led me into that bookstore. And when I found the book and I started practicing the strategies, I was like, okay, this is very interesting name.
Leslie Stoval (05:47):
Give us a little outline of the strategies.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (05:48):
Well, uh, the first thing was looking at the Ayurveda talks about balancing with opposites. Right. And that our bodies are made of the elements either air, fire, water, and earth mm-hmm.
Leslie Stoval (06:08):
Right.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (06:08):
When you think about water and earth, you mix it together, it makes mud. Oh yeah. So everything gets sludgy and stuck in, and you have mucus in the lungs. It's like a mud issue. Right. You've got all this stuff and you've gotta figure out how to stop making this kind of mud. Right.
Leslie Stoval (06:23):
Because the body's generating it.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (06:24):
Exactly. Because I'm eating things that is creating extra mucus in the body and not knowing it.
Leslie Stoval (06:30):
Dairy.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (06:30):
Dairy, exactly. Dairy, sugar, you know, heavy meat, you know, that, all that stuff. So I started shifting that, but I also started dealing with emotional issues. Right. I just started, I didn't directly connect it to that specific trauma. Not yet. Yet, not yet. But I started actually addressing emotional issues. And this went on for a short period of time. I'm talking,
Leslie Stoval (06:53):
stress can kill you,
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (06:54):
Stress can kill you. But I'm telling you that in three months my cough stopped. And that was the end of COPD.
Leslie Stoval (07:00):
So you, you know what,
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (07:01):
I love this. So I'm talking about 27 years of pharmaceutical medic. And when I talk about pharmaceutical medications, those last few years, I don't know if y'all saw the Walking Dead mm-hmm.
Leslie Stoval (07:18):
Was it psychotropic?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (07:20):
It wasn't psychotropic, it was narcotics to help suppress the cough. Oh. Because what they were saying is, I was coughing up blood. Right. So it was, it was, it was rupturing the alveoli and, and just the, um, the digestive tract. Right. And so it was making, it was just causing internal injuries. So they were like, okay, well the issue is then you can't cough. So then I would have to be on medicine so strong that I said, you know, walking around like that,
Leslie Stoval (07:47):
So, well, wasn't the object to cough. Cause you're trying to get something out. I don't know. I'm not a physician, but look
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (07:53):
Here, I'm just telling you that's, that was, that was my care under my doctor. Right. That was the answer. And so I was like, there must be another answer. Yeah. Right. And so when that happened to me, I could not, I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how I could go 27 years and suffer so horribly and then just practice a couple little dietary things, do a little bit of a, and poof gone like magic how I, I I was devastated that I didn't know these simple solutions that I could have taken years ago.
Leslie Stoval (08:29):
But you found out and you ref, you know what I, I'm impressed with, and I I know you are too. You, you refuse to be a victim.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (08:35):
Right. Right.
Leslie Stoval (08:36):
There's a solution out there for everything.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (08:40):
It cannot be a problem unless there is a solution. Yeah. Right. This is something that you have to know. No problem. Unless it's the solution is embedded in there, even if it's just a seed. Mm-hmm.
Leslie Stoval (08:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (08:53):
And so that's, that's what led me to this work. I was in the corporate world doing what I thought I was going to be. I was a marketing manager for a publishing company, Pearson Education, which is one of the largest publishers in the world. Wow. they published my brother's book. Yes. Yes. So I was working there, working my way up the, the chain and loving
Leslie Stoval (09:10):
Were you in New York?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (09:11):
Our offices were in Boston. Boston, yeah. I lived in New Mexico. I was an offsite person. Mm-hmm.
(09:22):
But after this I was like, first of all, I did not know this information. And I watched Black people suffer because of what they didn't know. And a lot,
Leslie Stoval (09:33):
everybody suffers from what they don't know
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (09:34):
everybody. And, but the thing is, some of, there's an ignorance tax. Well, believe me. Yeah. And the, the strategies, though, some of them are so simple and free, and we're always talking about access to healthcare and that we can't afford this and we can't afford that. I'm like, there is so much that you can do that doesn't cost money that can turn your life around. So I watch, I watch my, uh, family members die from preventable illnesses. I watched, you know, and I was like, I have to do something. But the challenge that I had is a lot of my knowledge came from Chinese medicine and from Ayurveda and from, you know, indigenous practices.
(10:07):
And then a lot of people look at that as a, a spiritual practice as well. And there's some spirituality, um, embedded in it.
Leslie Stoval (10:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (10:16):
But, but if you are a, a, um, very strict Christian, right. And I'm bringing you things that you've been taught to believe is witchcraft. Oh, how do I make the leap? So, and that was my biggest challenge as a Black person, like trying to figure out how to get people to do these strategies without people.
Leslie Stoval (10:36):
What, what communities were you working with?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (10:38):
Uh, just, just plain old Black folks and going to living their lives and going to church.
Ché Abram (10:44):
There are so many ways to get involved with BlackFemaleProject, but one of the ways that we find most impactful is becoming a sponsor For more information, go to BlackFemaleProject.org.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (11:03):
This is a true story. I was at home, um, in Maryland where I grew up, uh, or not where I grew up, but where my family grew up. And my mom was talking to her sister about a breathing strategy. Now, it literally was inhale, exhale. That was it. It was just a recorded breathing. Right. And my mom was saying, oh, I feel so much better because da da da. And my aunt was like, oh, you gotta be careful about those breathing exercises. You know, when you, when you breathe like that, I mean, you know, that can be satanic. And I was like, Lord, I'd have mercy. Oh, and have mercy. I'm like, breathing. It's like, fundamental, fundamental. I'm like, we're just breathing. We're not doing, you know, but, but it feels different. It, it brings, you know, an awareness to the mind. It's sensitive and it centers you.
(11:51):
And, but that's scary to some people. Right? So that was a huge, uh, challenge for me in the beginning when I first started.
Leslie Stoval (11:58):
So how did, how did you make the leap as it were?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (12:02):
You mean to, to change careers or to get that, get people to understand.
Leslie Stoval (12:06):
To get people to understand.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (12:09):
Uh, I'm still working on it.
Leslie Stoval (12:10):
I bet you are talking on it. Generations and generations.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (12:13):
Yeah. That's right. That's right. Well, you think about co the, the idea of code talking, right?
Leslie Stoval (12:19):
Yes.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (12:19):
Code talking. We have to do this all the time. Or code switching, right?
Leslie Stoval (12:22):
Yes.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (12:23):
So I do the same thing with Black folks. I'll give you a perfect example. I
Leslie Stoval (12:26):
please do.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (12:26):
I was in a tabernacle church, and you cannot get more, uh, conservative, they don't call each other by their first names. They would call themselves evangelist. Hi, I'm Evangelist Phyllis, right?
(12:38):
So very conservative group, and they want me, they wanted me to come in and talk about stress. And I was like, well, I'm gonna have to teach 'em three. I'm Qigong some kind of way. And I thought, I don't know. Well, a, I cannot say the word Qigong for sure, not in this church, but how can I teach Qigong without saying Qigong? I was like, I gotta do that. So I thought about it, and, you know, I grew up in the church, so I said, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I said, okay, these are strategies for reducing stress first. Wait a minute, what's that bible saying? Be still? And, and of course they all shout out, be still, and know that I'm God. I'm like, yeah, be still. Oh, you're good. And know that I'm God. So when was the last time you were actually still, because you can talk about it.
(13:27):
You can memorize the passage in the Bible, and you can know where it is in the Bible. But if you actually are not still ever, are you actually living that passage?
Leslie Stoval (13:39):
I'm not.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (13:40):
Right? Yeah. So what I'm teaching you is not something that goes against your spiritual practice or competes with it. What I'm teaching you is a way to amplify your spiritual practice. In the same way a microphone app amplifies my voice.
Leslie Stoval (13:54):
I'm still the same voice.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (13:55):
It's the same voice. I'm not trying to change anything about you or what you do. I'm just trying to help you make a deeper connection to what you already believe and
Leslie Stoval (14:04):
that relax
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (14:05):
and that relax them. And then I walk them through a Qigong exercise.
Leslie Stoval (14:09):
Oh, can we do one now?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (14:11):
Oh gosh, I would love it. I would love it. So this is how you do, this is a short little Qigong exercise like this.
(14:17):
Okay? Um, yes. So what what I want you to do is, um, either come up on the front, front, one third of the chair, or push her behind all the way to the back. Either way, no front. Right, front, front. All right. And so then from there, you're going to pull your shoulders up, back and down and relax them there. Oh, I feel better already. See, that's then telling you little simple strategies. And then I want you to imagine that you're in water. Okay. So you know that if you move too much in water, you make ripples. Yes. So I want you to move so slowly that you don't even make a single ripple in the water. Okay. All right. So from there, relax your arms all the way down. Okay. And as you breathe in, I want you to rotate your palms to the front.
Leslie Stoval (14:59):
Okay.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (15:00):
And then bending at the elbows, raise the hands up to the height of the chest.
Leslie Stoval (15:05):
Oh, okay.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (15:07):
As you exhale, I want you to turn your palms in so that they face each other just to the height of the chest. So bring your arms down a little bit more. So they're like 90 degrees.
Leslie Stoval (15:16):
I've got my eyes closed. I can't see.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (15:17):
Okay. All right. Well, that's good. As long as your palms are facing. Okay. All right. So from here, open the space between your fingers. Ah. And then as you breathe in, expand the hands outward.
(15:31):
Good. As you exhale, allow the hands to move inward. Good. Now, I think you might have made a ripple in the water, so let's try to slow it down. Oh, breathe in. Expand outward. Good. As you exhale, just bring your hands in a few inches, not letting the hands touch. Good. So let's try it again. Breathe in, expand outward. Good. Exhale, the hands come inward. And then come to a pause. Open the space between the fingers. Okay. Now breathe slowly and deeply and try to pulse your hands in and out just a little bit in towards each other and out. Relax your fingers. You're just pulsing your hands in and out. Pressing inward, just pressing inward. And try to slow yourself down.
Leslie Stoval (16:22):
That's a challenge.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (16:23):
I know. That's the part of the exercise, right? Mm-hmm.
(16:32):
And remember what it was like when you could touch the edge of a soap bubble right before it popped. Right. In Qigong, we call this empty force. So as you're pressing inward, I want you to imagine that you're pressing up against the edge of a soap bubble.
Leslie Stoval (16:50):
So not too hard
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (16:50):
without allowing it to pop. Not too hard, right? Breathing slowly and deeply, in and out. And then I want you to pay attention to what you feel inside your hands. Doesn't matter what you feel, just pay attention to what you feel. Some people feel heat or cold, or tingling, or pulsing or vibration. Magnetic pulse doesn't matter what. Mm-hmm.
Leslie Stoval (17:43):
right. Oh, that, that was nice.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (17:45):
Nice. Right?
Leslie Stoval (17:45):
I feel much better.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (17:46):
Yes. Yes.
Ché Abram (17:52):
I just had to exhale. One more deep breath after that exercise. So what did you feel? Because I felt a tingling vibration in my hands. And also this sensation of immense joy. I think I was envisioning like being a little kid and playing with that bubble in my bathtub, like just kind of shaping it and reshaping it and moving it. But that vibration was really, really powerful. Yet I still noticed there was tension in my shoulders. I had to tell myself to slow down, and I had to tell myself to let go into the experience versus my desire to do it perfectly. And I felt like I spent a lot of time talking myself into the experience and saying, it doesn't have to be perfect. Just go with it. So, as I said, when we begin, Dr. Hubbard's work is powerful, radiant, and centers the self. I hope you got that understanding as well. When I said centered self, her work really has you dive into you and tap into you. And after this exercise, I really am asking myself, what am I tapping into? What is this teaching me about myself? And I hope that after this exercise, you're making deeper connections within yourself as well.
Leslie Stoval (19:22):
Now, I really do.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (19:23):
I Iove that exercise
Leslie Stoval (19:25):
Because you know what, you're focusing your, you're being focusing and just being in touch with yourself,
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (19:30):
yourself. Exactly. Yeah. So now, did you feel anything?
Leslie Stoval (19:32):
Yes. I felt, um, trembling.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (19:35):
Trembling. Okay. Yeah. You felt like, like vibration. So it's very interesting that when I do this exercise with a group of people, everyone has a different feeling. Someone's, someone's hot, someone's cold. Yeah. Someone's pulsing, vibrating, someone feels something somewhere else. And I'm like, then what are you tapping into? Because I, I taught the exercise the same way to every single one of you. Right? Right. So then you're feeling your own energy. Yeah. Right? And so what this exercise does is it helps you tap into the truest part of yourself. It's the reason why I call myself a body whisperer, because it was the body whisperer that said, what you're doing is killing you. Yeah. Find something else. And that is the voice that led me to, to freedom.
Leslie Stoval (20:20):
Well, you know what, it's tremendous what you've done. Where can people get ahold of you and start that healing in a holistic manner?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (20:29):
Oh my goodness. Well, you can, you can reach me so many different ways. Right now, I am the Director of Health and Healing Strategies for the Campaign for Black Male Achievement. And so I have lots of blogs, uh, and lots of information on that website, which is BlackMaleAchievement.org. And I my own, uh, organization as well, which is called Radiant Health Strategies. And at Radient Health Strategies, I'm at www.radianthealthstrategies.com or phyllis@radianthealthstrategies.com. On Instagram. I'm Phyllis Hubbard, all lowercase on Facebook. I'm Phyllis Hubbard or Radiant Health Strategies. And on Twitter I am @Get Radiant.
Leslie Stoval (21:08):
All right. Well, before we let you go mm-hmm.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (21:19):
Who would I put on my Black female? Good Lord Harriet Tubman.
Leslie Stoval (21:26):
I was gonna say Harriet, I I thought you'd say that.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (21:28):
Harriet. Harriet. Harriet Tubman. For sure. I would put her on there. Um, Sojourner Truth. Mm.
Leslie Stoval (21:35):
Ain't I a woman?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (21:36):
Yes. And I, I don't know, I might say Harriet Jacobs because someone who could find it within themselves to live in an attic for seven years watching her children trying to figure out how to set herself and her children free, free the level of resilience that it takes, uh, to make that happen. I just, whatever it is, I'll, I'll, I want to look at that and respect. Yeah. Um, and build and cultivate that within myself.
Leslie Stoval (22:15):
Absolutely.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:15):
Yeah.
Leslie Stoval (22:17):
One more.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:18):
Yes.
Leslie Stoval (22:19):
Who's, who's that?
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:20):
Oh, I got one more. What up there? Four there.
Leslie Stoval (22:23):
Four of 'em.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:23):
Oh, that's right. Shoot.
Leslie Stoval (22:44):
That's a beautiful t
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:45):
hing.
Leslie Stoval (22:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:46):
Beautiful.
Leslie Stoval (22:46):
You're lovely too. Thank you so much for coming by.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:49):
Thank you for having me.
Leslie Stoval (22:50):
All right.
Dr. Phyllis Hubbard (22:51):
Take care. It's a pleasure
Precious Stroud (22:55):
BlackFemaleProject.
Ché Abram (23:02):
We invite you to learn more about the women in this episode, BlackFemaleProject, and ways to support the project by going to www.BlackFemaleProject.org.